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TOPIC: "'Ground Zero Mosque' Park51 Not a Triumph of Radical Islam" (Romesh Ratnesar, Yahoo News, 818/10)


Diamond

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"'Ground Zero Mosque' Park51 Not a Triumph of Radical Islam" (Romesh Ratnesar, Yahoo News, 818/10)
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First, some serious thoughts on this topic..  and then I will post the article.

I am not a christian but have a deep sense of right and wrong and always doing the right thing especially by law and ethics, by family, friends and people who believe in us, and truly by a sense of what is fair, just, honest (but not hurtful) and equitable.

I believe all prayers are equal and good, and are meant to keep each person centered so that they do not harm themselves nor others.

At times when I saw christian prayers at Ground Zero in the midst of official events, I had wondered how it rubs others.. and was much relieved when at times it was followed by prayers of various other religions.  

It is unfortunate that Islam and terrorism have become related topics by virtue of statistical correlation and some causality has been attributed to the religion itself.  Yes, extensive brainwashing is what religions do -- religion is afterall stories passed down from generation to generation to pass down and enforce behaviors that have come to be accepted within the power centers of that religion -- others follow it in good faith.  For example, the whole notion that God is a "He" is very self-serving by one gender that became a power center over time.  Religions have good and bad elements that have been passed down... but prayer is one of the better elements of religion... and a mosque is supposed to be a place for prayer.

But even I was taken aback by the Ground Zero mosque proposal -- and that caught me off guard a bit to be honest.  Ever since the Ground Zero mosque topic came up, I have battled my emotions on the subject.   Being in NY, being on the bank of the river that was followed by the aircraft that hit WTC and hearing of roommate of a family member not returning home that day, and many friends coming too close (by 5 minutes or less) to being in the buildings because they were late or had later appointments... the WTC topic is very sensitive for me. 

While by Constitution, as restricted by any zoning which was absent in this case, the mosque is quite a legitimate thing to build in the ground that it is sought to be built upon, I have wondered about the lack of sensitivity of the people proposing it.  Yes, people can say it is a "triumph trophy" of sorts, but one can also see it as people wanting to pray... but that prayer can be done elsewhere, not quite so close.  [But if they had proposed it 5 blocks from Ground Zero, we would probably have had the same discussion.]

America is indeed a country with people of many religions.  Yes we refer to God in many places, but not to any "one" named God as such [although many will claim otherwise] and I strongly believe that the land itself is the best ground for all religions because the natural law was the law of the land for the native Americans.  They were welcoming enough of others.

So, it is for us America to view terrorism with disdain and shun all terrorist activities.. but not for us to shun a place of worship and prayer. Let us not confuse the building of a mosque with a terrorist activity; it is not. Yes, it is regrettable that some people did not see how it would irk many of other faiths when they proposed a mosque in that place... but say some of them come to Ground Zero and want to pray their way... where would they have to go?  We have to give people the benefit of the doubt... while still being vigilant on individual people's activities and actions, and being on our guard on terrorism despite the very promising numbers I read in the article below.

The following article made me feel good about the topic of the mosque a well as America's achievement on terrorism front. So, I share.

--------------------------

Read @ Yahoo News
Originally from TIME.

'Ground Zero Mosque' Park51 Not a Triumph of Radical Islam

Should Muslims be allowed to build a mosque at Ground Zero? Merely posing the question is an act of deliberate distortion. As its defenders point out, the Community Center at Park51 will occupy not a solitary inch of the 16-block site on which the Twin Towers stood. Once built, the center will indeed house a mosque, "open and accessible to all" - but also a swimming pool, basketball court, auditorium, library, day-care facility, restaurant and cooking school. The center is being built by a private organization on land it legally owns. Twenty-nine out of 30 Lower Manhattan community-board members voted to approve it. By every legal standard, the case for allowing Park51 to be built is, in the words of conservative UCLA constitutional-law professor Eugene Volokh, "open and shut."

But the question isn't going away. [SNIP]

Many opponents of the Park51 project claim that the mosque itself isn't the problem; it's the idea of building it so close to the World Trade Center. Such misgivings have some validity. But the heat the mosque controversy has generated, on both the left and right, is unhealthy, misplaced and ultimately self-defeating. (Emphasis added here) It reflects our tendency to exaggerate the real threat posed by Islamic extremism and what America should do about it. And nine years after 9/11, the fight over the mosque near Ground Zero shows how obsessed we remain with an enemy that may no longer exist. (See more commentary on Islamophobia and the mosque near Ground Zero.)

The mosque's critics and champions both say their goal is to counter radical Islam. In his Aug. 3 speech defending the Park51 project, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said that "we would play into our enemies' hands" if we were to deny American Muslims the right to build a mosque where they choose. "To cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists," Bloomberg said. New York Congressman Jerrod Nadler, a mosque supporter, says, "Everybody's liberty is at stake here." The mosque's opponents make the same argument in reverse. Gingrich has called the Cordoba Initiative part of "an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization." Building the mosque, in the words of one conservative columnist, would be "a symbolic monument to the triumph of Islamism in the United States." (See the moderate imam behind the mosque near Ground Zero.)

The prevalence of such rhetoric on both sides of the mosque debate makes it seem as if the struggle against global jihadism hangs in the balance. The truth is that Osama bin Laden and his ilk face much bigger problems. The story of the past decade in the Muslim world is that of the widespread rejection - or "refudiation," to borrow a phrase - of terrorism. A study by the Pew Research Center earlier this year found that support in Muslim countries for suicide bombings has fallen precipitously from post-9/11 levels. One-third of Pakistanis believed terrorism was justified in 2002; now just 8% do. (Emphasis added here) For all our anxiety about the rise of religious extremism, no government in the Arab world has been toppled by forces sympathetic to al-Qaeda since 2001. And though some militant Muslims surely wish us harm, their ability to actually inflict it has eroded; it has been more than five years since the last successful al-Qaeda attack in the West.

[SNIP]

What does this mean for the mosque near Ground Zero? However the dispute is ultimately resolved, its impact on the "threat" posed by radical Islam will be negligible. That's because the threat is receding on its own. Allowing a place of worship to be built in lower Manhattan will constitute neither an American triumph nor a defeat. It will simply tell the world that this nation, wisely, has decided to move on.

Full article @ Yahoo News

------------------------------------

It is a triumph of America and its constitution to be able to co-exist peacefuly. To each their own is true in our culture, like it or not that is what America is and what American constitution allows.

It would have been a bigger triumph to have an inter-faith prayer place -- like we find in the Albany airport -- and yes, I visit that prayer place for its serene silence and it does quieten your mind of a zillion thoughts that go through the head and you can hear yourself speak to your God and suspend the silly as well as logical thought.. things of mundane earthly life.  But, no, we as a NY community were not forward-looking enough to do that...

I hope the place has equal access to women.

I hope the place allows access to people of other faith.

I hope the place never becomes a western Jerusalem.

And, I hope to go there and pray my way for health and happiness of my family and friends and peace on earth (that's pretty much what I pray for), which is neither muslim way nor christian way... and be left alone and not ever be noticed for who I am or what I do in how I pray.

It is time for peace.  And perhaps the peace can begin with us (yeah, that's small "us").  I am ready for it to begin with me.


-- Edited by Sanders on Wednesday 18th of August 2010 01:38:29 PM

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Platinum

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Bloomberg pointed out that there was already a mosque one block from the proposed site, so why build another? I agree with Palin on this one, if the proposed mosque is being built to prove the beauty of the Muslim religion through educational outreach, why haven't the other 100 mosques been able to do that? This is a thumb in your eye, a "ha ha, look what we did" response and just think, the Muslims who attend the mosque will be able to look out their windows and see the devastation they caused and revel in it on a daily basis.

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Diamond

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I was unaware that there is another mosque in the next block. Perhaps there should be a law that says there should be no two places of worship in a row.... then again, there are many denomination places of worship in a row in all kinds of places.

What I do not understand is why an orthodox church that perished during 9/11 is not getting the requested permit to rebuild on a more grand scale. [CORRECTION: That plan coming to halt had nothing to do with a permit. They wanted a new site and money from the government for expansion and they did not get that.  By contrast the cultural center and mosque proposed is doing private fundraising in the US with no plan to go outside the US at this time.]

The cynic in me says...Heck may be they should just zone the whole thing a no-prayer zone. There was no real God on 9/11 anyway. But I have to remind myself of what Pres.Clinton said in recent speech to Yale graduates - cynicism is an excuse to spiral down. So, let's snap out of that thought.

I am sure each of our Gods/souls have a sense of justice and fairness.. and what is right and wrong... and anyone who is cruel enough to be that unkind and "triumphant" in their thought as to look at Ground Zero with glee will suffer their karma in this or other lives.  May be I am just a bit more religious in this regards....


-- Edited by Sanders on Wednesday 18th of August 2010 07:44:04 PM



Just saw this on NYTimes blog


August 18, 2010, 5:08 pm

U.S. Sends Muslim Center Imam to Arab World to Promote Religious Tolerance

ANNE BARNARD AND ROBERT MACKEY

-- Edited by Sanders on Wednesday 18th of August 2010 07:49:16 PM

-------------------------------

Added CORRECTION above after reading many articles regarding the Orthodox church's plan and quests for expanded new building in a new site on Ground Zero -
Zoning/permit were not the issue, but their request government funds was denied.  By contrast the community center plus mosque did not ask for government funds.

-- Edited by Sanders on Thursday 19th of August 2010 12:15:23 AM

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Here is my take on this whole issue.  The purpose of this mosque according to its developer was to establish a peaceful place to bring about unity and respect.  Now, if I was hearing all the fervor of my fellow citizens against this, I would logically not build there as to do so would defeat my original intent.

I know they have a "right" to build this, but logic dictates that this is simply not going to accomplish the originally stated purpose of this mosque.

The Catholic Church moved a convent that was near Aushwitz not because they were forced to by the German government, but because they respected the people of Germany who hold that site as sacred to their land.

Ground Zero is sacred to the majority of Americans and if they wish to achieve the respect they claim desired, logic clearly dictates that waving the "its my right" mantra over a basic sense of civility towards their fellow Americans is not going to win them any respect.  It only "proves" to the majority that doesn't want it there that the purpose is to rub our own laws in our faces.

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Diamond

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VH, you make great points and you are right. The purpose is to make peace, and peace should be of the utmost concern even from their perpective... and if that is so, why would they want to build on that soil.

I just read an article... of all people by Howard Dean. Not his fan on any day of the week here.. That said, this article has some good thoughts from Dr.Dean.

Read @ Salon.com

Ground Zero Mosque

Why I back a mosque compromise

The builders want to build it as a healing gesture, but healing is impossible without dialogue

EXCERPT:

Here is my case. First, no one who understands the American Constitution can reasonably doubt the right of the builders to build. Secondly, the building site is very close to the site of a violent tragedy that seared the soul of every American, including Muslim Americans. Thirdly, the builders of the proposed Islamic Center say they want to help heal the nation and there is a preponderance of evidence that that is true, based not least on the fact that the last administration viewed the leadership of this group as a pro-American bridge to the Muslim world.

Fourth, there are many Americans, about 65 or 70 percent, including many family members of the victims, who have very strong emotional resistance to building on this site. Some of them may have other feelings such as hate, fear, etc., but the vast majority of these people are not right-wing hate mongers.

My argument is simple. This center may be intended as a bridge or a healing gesture but it will not be perceived that way unless a dialogue with a real attempt to understand each other happens. That means the builders have to be willing to go beyond what is their right and be willing to talk about feelings whether the feelings are "justified" or not. No doubt the Republic will survive if this center is built on its current site or not. But I think this is a missed opportunity to try to have an open discussion about why this is a big deal, because it is a big deal to a lot of Americans who are not just right-wing politicians pushing the hate button again. I think those people need to be heard respectfully, whether they are right or whether they are wrong.

This has nothing to do with the right to build, and unlike same-sex marriage or the civil rights movement, it is not about equal protection under the law. The rights of the builders are not in dispute. This is about ending the poisonous atmosphere engendered by fear and hate, and in order to do that there has to be genuine listening, hearing and willingness to compromise on both sides. I personally believe that there are other possible solutions that could result from such a process and that a genuine exploration of those possibilities is something we ought to try.

Full article @ Salon.com

I would agree with that.  I hope the genuine listening goes both ways and really brings some lasting peace to all including me on this topic.



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Well, dammit.  After spending 10 minutes writing a response, the damn thing somehow disappeared when I tried to post.  Anyway, I think Rev. Amy says it all: http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/page/2/.

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Diamond

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freespirit wrote:

Well, dammit.  After spending 10 minutes writing a response, the damn thing somehow disappeared when I tried to post.  Anyway, I think Rev. Amy says it all: http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/page/2/.


Freespirit, You probably meant this article: “An Unholy Alliance” By Rabble Rouser Reverend Amyon August 16, 2010 at 8:00 PM

This article is a must read!!  Thanks freespirit; please do post your thoughts. Thanks.

 

I agree with Amy, we must address the issues with eyes wide open.

I really like Hirsi Ali. Hirsi Ali makes great points; really like to listen to her very logical thoughts.  Those two videos are so good I will post them here with my thoughts on two segments.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Is Europe too Tolerant of Radical Islam?



In the first video answer to the facilitator's question (1:30 mark) on what in your view should governments like Netherlands be doing [with the problem they have on hand in relation to Islam], she answers that first, Netherlands should acknowledge that Islam especially in social and political dimensions is incompatible secular, liberal values (that was in the first embedded video) - very profound!  Yes, the double standard is something that is palpable in the US as well.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Radical Islam and the American Left



And, yes Hirsi Ali makes a really profound observation about the far left's hatred of America.  This is perhaps one big reason why Pres.Obama has so many issues with mainstream America and especially with moderates. He has identified himself closely with the far left -- and his congressional record itself is also to the far left.  That in combination with his background and upbringing makes people wonder how much he really likes America. His apologising for America does not help much.

And, yes, we do have to proceed with eyes wide open on Islam... as on all religious extremes!

When we confuse what religion is meant for - a way to bring peace and balance to the mind which is its truest purpose and utility (rather than go see a shrink) - and start imposing religious values on others it becomes extreme rapidly.  The extent to which that imposition happens makes it socially acceptable or not acceptable.  Each of us sees many "impositions" by different religions that we deem unacceptable that are perfectly acceptable to the followers of the religion. 

I for one feel that a religion demanding weekly visit to a place to congregate is excessive - and that happens in many religions some on Fridays, some on Saturdays and some on Sundays, but kind of societal imposition is pittance compared with what Islam imposes such as what Hirsi Ali talks about in regard to genital mutilation.  Genital mutilation of girls and boys happens in many societies not just followers of Islam but in the case of Islam it seems to have religious sanctions.  Time and again we see that the treatment of women as subservient objects -- and objectification of the female body - is the foundation on which Islam is built.  That certainly needs to change.  Can it change and how core to the Islam religion is that is something to assess closely.  Does embracing Islam as a religion also mean embracing their social values that have been pushed down in the guise of religion? It should not.

We have to emphasize and reinforce equality at every step of the way.

Double standard is not acceptable for any group or sect, by color or religion or other yardstick/parlance, in America or otherwise.

-- Edited by Sanders on Friday 20th of August 2010 10:02:49 AM

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I posted the wrong link.  Here's the correct link for the article: It Isn't About The Freedom To Practice Religion, Obama 
http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2010/08/14/it-isnt-about-freedom-to-practice-religion-obama/

Excerpt from the article:
How dare anyone try and make this out to be anything other than that. It is not about freedom of religion, or the right of one group to practice that religion. It is about a modicum of grace. A modicum of respect. We would no more accept a KKK headquarters in Selma, or a Japanese WWII memorial at Pearl Harbor, or a German Cultural museum on the beaches of Normandy. No, we wouldn’t, and we shouldn’t accept this as a “freedom of religion” issue. It isn’t.

Amy is spot on with this, I think.  The founders of this country were wise in providing for the separation of church and state.  When the religious and the political are one and the same, as in the case of radical Islam, it's impossible to make a negative statement about the political without doing so about the religion, itself.  So be it.

IMO, Muslims in this country and around the world could have and should have done more to publicly condemn the violence of 9/11 and the ongoing animosity and threats made by radical Islam since that time.

Obviously, people are free to practice their religion of choice.  They can knock themselves out with religion.  But, when, in the name of religion, acts of hatred and violence are perpetrated, the line is crossed. It is no longer about religious freedom.  It's about a political agenda.




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Diamond

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Yes, I agree. I went far from our topic here. Yes, it is not about right to practice religion; it is not about zoning, and it is not even about the qualifications of the Imam.

Terrorism, persecution and subjugation are wrong things being carried out by politicians and political vigilantes, often in the name of religion.  We felt got the wrath of religion-inspired terrorim and have lived the ill-effects of it ever since 9/11. Our history of terrorism is intertwined with our knowledge of Islam as a religion.  No matter how much we get told that the religion is peaceful, it is hard to believe - even for me - given the irrefutable, high correlation between perpetrators of terrorist activities and their religion being Islam. 

Yes, I too wish there was more denouncing the terrorist acts by the Muslim community in the US and abroad. May be they did and the intense hurt feelings simply drowned their denouncement - but I really do not recall much denouncement from within or abroad from Muslim community leaders/nations.

It is really too bad that women Yes, in Islamic countries, religion governs their state.  [Kind of like in the Vatican City as a country, which it is.]

When the act of promoting their thought processes and expressing their angst againt another country goes outside of the normative process, it becomes a religion-inspired act.

Many of the issues of Islamic nations' political interests have to do with Western (including European) treatment of women -- independence afforded to women.  When they see partially clad women (and worse, nudity) in movies and TV and now on YouTube - and they see it is boundless and has begun to invade the minds of the women there -- they view it as real and present danger.  They try to counter-balance it locally with increasing reinforcements as we have seen recently with big penalties for going against their "accepted norms."  Externally, we see the kind of acts that are terrorist acts against other culture countries.

There is cause for serious concern especially because Islam is not showing any signs of reform from within. The ONLY efforts at reform we have seen in Muslim nations were the recent civil movement in Iran and the people got silenced -- which is very sad. 

There is high need to reform the religion of Islam itself; without that, muslim states cannot progress easily if at all on the social scale.

To have a hope of reform from within, it is essential that people - all people - start thinking critically and logically of their own state of affairs and communicate amongst themselves about what is fair, just and equitable. It takes courage and conviction to stand up for yourself and your fellow human beings who are being subjugated, to gain strength from others in the community and discuss and bring forth change... All of which are difficult when the religion sanctions are stacked up against you.  But women in the muslim world should know that reform IS possible, and only THEY can bring forth the needed change from within their countrie first.

And in the meanwhile, if the heat of the change causes extra heat in the body and that becomes anger against western practices and western civilizations, the religious leaders need to preach peace.  Islam women leaders may want to start places of prayer with women as priests - it just may work as the first step to reforming the religion itself.

Again, I wish the current proposed project in NYC was more of an interfaith prayer place that is non-denominational in all religious sense and completely inclusive.  If that was the case and if men and women are considered equal in that place of worship, that would indeed provide a place to communicate with each other and bring more peace and harmony to NYC and US as a whole.

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Platinum

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They aren't going to back down on building this mosque. Hell would freeze over first. I hope, genuinely hope, they understand that if they do, the walls of that mosque will be saturated in the blood of those people killed in the name of Islam, and I have no doubt at all that the spirits of 3000 people will haunt the halls. How can those souls rest when the ones responsible for it are building a celebration hall right next to the murder site? That mosque is not a place to heal, its a place to continually pull the scabs off of the wounds of the people who lost a loved one, and a constant reminder to everyone who sees it of the "righteous" murder of innocent Americans by a terrorist leaning and terrorist supporting pseudo religion. Obviously I have no use for the religion or those who practice it, and since I don't, I will shut up now, because I've absolutely nothing good to say about Muslims or Islam, period.

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